Pandemic migration has reshaped the housing market, but there are questions about whether or not a partial return to the office may reverse it.
And while loan performance looks relatively strong, it's increasingly tough to forecast because of unprecedented policy intervention.
In the wide-ranging conversation that follows Duncan unpacks all of these contradictions and others. His remarks have been edited for length and clarity.
There’s a limited return to the office now. Do the migration numbers reflect that?
You're also seeing the impact of remote or hybrid work on office space valuation. There'll be negotiating between property owners and tenants. Part of the decision companies are making will be based on trying to understand total productivity change from changes in staffing. It won't be the same for all job categories.
My personal view is we're still probably two or three years away from stability on this front. I think companies are still sorting it out.
A related question is
I mention commercial trends to get people to think outside of the class of real estate that they might be involved in. A lot of the residential lenders focus on people making or refinancing mortgages and aren't necessarily thinking about how the people for whom they are making those mortgages might be changing their life circumstances.
What does the current loan performance outlook look like?
In the last two serious downturns, there has been huge intervention into the market from the government. So you can't just look at the data from the past. We're now less certain about what that relationship would be. It's reasonable to expect another policy intervention.
I've been asking lenders, do you believe that mortgage lending is still secured lending? Have these interventions severed the security from the loan? They say, "I don't know." The reason I ask is there might be questions about whether risk premiums are wide enough if there's acknowledgement that you no longer have access to the asset. If you think about capital markets and functioning and how pricing takes place, if you've lost the security, you would think risk premiums would rise. So maybe that's a piece of why
There are other things like the Fed exiting mortgage-backed securities. They're the single biggest holder in the world. Who replaces them? It's going to be somebody that's going to care about yield. We've got time to figure it out because the Fed's portfolio is running off very slowly.
You also have to ask, is there a reputational risk for mortgages in the banking sector now given
Our forecast has no rate changes until May of '24, when we think there will be a mild recession underway, and the Fed will start to cut slowly.
For next year you have higher originations in the second half, are lower rates the driver?
What’s the Fed looking for in housing when it comes to rate policy?
Prices have risen. That will work against what the Fed is trying to achieve in housing. They've gotten some benefit from policy but maybe not as much as they had hoped.
We have recession-level home sales volumes. How does that play into the current outlook?
Our National Housing Survey suggests people think of this as a bad time to buy a house, because prices are rising and interest rates rose again. So there's this sort of conflicting perspective in the marketplace.
When interest rates rose past 7% the first time this past year, what you saw was the securitized market froze up briefly, and rapidly builders started offering buydowns. Why would they do that? Historically, builders in order to cut prices would offer additional attributes to the house. Why didn't they do that? There are two data points that speak to that. One is right now the share of new home sales as a percent of the total is at the highest level it has ever been at. Second, within those new home sales, the share of new home sales going to first time homebuyers is high.
A first-time buyer is not interested in attributes, they're looking for a basic house. Their problem is getting a down payment and affording the financing.
That's a really important nuance. Warren Buffett just spent several hundred of millions of dollars, buying a piece of D.R. Horton, a builder that serves first-time buyers. That suggests the supply issue is going to stick with us for a while. That's where all the pressure is from the demand side in the new home market, because there just aren't existing properties available for sale.
The builders are working through the backlog they had because of supply issues. Those are largely solved. As sales proceed, they're likely to enter a period where margins will widen again.
At what point does the resilience seen in home prices give out?
There have been famous papers by well-known economists that have predicted the collapse of the housing market, to their detriment, because it never happened, so I'm not going to predict a collapse. People thought 10 years ago that millennials would not want to own homes because they saw the damage from foreclosures during the Great Recession. But when we surveyed in June of 2010, 90% of them eventually wanted to own a home. This is in my view, a long-standing permanent impulse of people in the United States. So I don't foresee any collapse of the housing market.
But demographics do suggest a change in the balance between supply and demand, which would slow the pace of price appreciation. Also there are periodic price declines on a regional basis. Right now you're seeing some big declines on the West Coast in some of what were previously the hottest markets, but on average across the country prices have risen. Migration has definitely shifted from the West Coast to the Southeast as people have been moving.
So I would say it's more likely to be a rebalancing of supply and demand that would kind of flatten the market out or return it to a more normal pace of appreciation.
Supply also is a case of the baby boomers aging. While their aspiration is to age in place, at some point infirmity sets in, and some of them have to start exiting their existing homes. So the question is, does the supply on the market become greater as a result of that?
We have surveyed people 60 years of age and older that own homes, to ask them what is your life gameplan. People are always talking about reverse mortgages, but they hate reverse mortgages.
Why are people saying they hate reverse mortgages?
Most people that take reverse mortgages are forced to take them by health-related issues, which usually means your time in the house could be limited, and the loan can be financially inefficient. You have to make assumptions about the future value of the house and you and the lender may have wildly different views of that.
There are exceptions. Mutual of Omaha has reverse mortgages as a component of a sophisticated financial plan for many households but that tends to be properties that have a value of $1 million or more.
Lenders are more focused on cost savings. How has that impacted technology?
Now, what you're seeing is that they feel pretty good about consumer technologies and they recognize we should have been spending time becoming more financially efficient. Today in our Lender Sentiment Survey, it's clearly cost management that's the priority.
What's an example of cost-efficient technology? Artificial-intelligence driven workflow?
I think there's been a lot of experimentation and development of it but don't know that there's anybody that has had a high degree of success. It's of interest to me that Intercontinental Exchange has acquired technology in so many parts of the mortgage process. They may have the tools to do some work in that space that others might not but it remains to be seen.
Current click-through charges extract value. Smaller companies are creating their own loan origination systems primarily because the big LOS vendor charges absorb a lot of what would be the cost savings.